Episode 113: The Office After COVID with Anthony Vaughan

Anthony Vaughan


Anthony Vaughan is the host of the popular E1B2 podcast show, a strategic advisor to multiple companies, and he recently launched the E1B2 Collective, where his team is focused on helping startups, improve their employee experience and put their people first by launching people operations divisions. Vaughan joins Jon Tota to discuss the post-COVID working world, the focus on a return to work, a new working normal, and how to make the employee experience even better than before.

Learn more about the E1B2 Collective

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Check out this episode!

Jon Tota (00:00):

Hey everyone, Jon Tota here. I want to thank you for tuning into the show each week. We love our Learning Life community and are so grateful for your support. We’d appreciate it. If you would take a minute to rate us and write a review for Learning Life, wherever you’re listening right now. Your ratings and comments help new people find the show so we can keep growing our community and bringing great interviews on the topics you care most about. Thanks for being here. Now on to the show.

Anthony Vaughan (00:25):

Ask yourself objectively. No emotions. Can these things get done with the current structure that we have now during the COVID-19 crisis? The way that we’ve had our employees working currently are things getting done? And let’s really test ourselves to ask ourselves these really tough objective questions.

Intro (00:44):

Welcome to Learning Life, where top experts share their business knowledge and personal journeys each week. “And the thing that I realized from the CEO to the NFL football player, to the janitor – we’re our toughest critics, and we’re hardest on ourselves.” – James Lawrence And wanted to bring education to the market. I wake up in the morning and I am constantly learning.” “The only way to grab somebody’s attention is with a story” – Cal Fussman. Happy learning. And now your host, Jon Tota.

Jon Tota (01:12):

Welcome back to Learning Life with Jon Tota. My guest today is Anthony Vaughn. Anthony is the host of the popular E1B2 podcast show, a strategic advisor to multiple companies, and he recently launched the E1B2 Collective, where his team is focused on helping startups, improve their employee experience and put their people first by launching people operations divisions. And with all of us business owners dealing with this post-COVID working world, we need to focus on a return to work, a new working normal, and how to make the employee experience even better than before. So I’m really happy to have Anthony with us today. Anthony Vaughan, welcome to Learning Life.

Anthony Vaughan (01:48):

I really appreciate it. How are you?

Jon Tota (01:49):

I’m doing great. I am really happy to have you with us today because this is such a unique time where we’re all dealing with this challenge of this kind of new normal in the working world. And you’re an expert in all of this, so really great that you could find the time to be with us. Why don’t you share with our audience first and foremost how you got into this whole world of employee experience? What was the genesis of it for you and where did you begin this journey?

Anthony Vaughan (02:15):

I’ll try to keep it brief. At 19 I decided to leave university. I was a former former D-1 [Division 1] athlete, had a lot of connections with, with Under Armour executives and a few other high-level skills and agility type coaches and professionals. And I decided to start a brand. It was a year round football academy. At the time, the only comparable type of brand that was out there to what I was trying to build was an academy called IMG, which is huge now. So I started the brand partner with Under Armour, partnered with a guy named Seth (I’ll leave out his last name out of the picture for a couple of different reasons). Then I partnered with a facility that was known in the Baltimore area that was very big and popular at the time.

Anthony Vaughan (02:58):

And we built the brand over 18 months. It grew and a lot of great things were happening, but Seth wanted to have ownership partnership in the brand. And frankly, he was the sole reason of why the brand was connected to every single student, kid, school, and program. And I declined that for a multitude of reasons that were not valid, honestly. I was not aware of succession planning. I was not aware of employee experience and I was not aware of how to be a great leader and kind of dive into what an employee wants. And he left the brand. 27 days to the T after he left the brand, the brand went to literally zero. Now for a business perspective, I built the brand on a horrible framework and I was 19-20 years old. But from an employee experience perspective, what I didn’t understand is I didn’t understand how to design and orchestrate and organize the brand from an employee experience centered perspective.

Anthony Vaughan (03:56):

I later realized that it was not a good idea to organize and structure the relationships that I had within the brand from a level of just transactional. I realized that I needed to dive deeper into people’s overall perspectives and background. And so the long story short of the story is I decided to go on a long journey to dive into employee experience, succession planning, figure out what I did wrong, figure out how I could change. And that’s been my life’s work from that moment.

Anthony Vaughan (04:26):

To give you the rest of the background briefly, I went on to then start a partnership design agency where I helped the brands kind of organize and structure partnerships. Went on to do some speaking, advising, some consulting. The last four years, I’ve held positions of VP of people for our startup, as well as a nonprofit. The long story short here, Jon is my entire life has been dedicated around employee experience for the last 10 years because I made a really poor decision. This guy, Seth we’re talking about is now the agility coach for every single NFL team in the off season. And it’s sitting on a very, very big business. So I made a mistake.

Jon Tota (05:03):

Well, thank you for sharing that because I think that’s one of the things that our listeners always love to hear is when people can kind of look back at their entrepreneurial journey and say, wow, had I done things a little bit differently, could I have made my business in my life easier? And it’s not easy to share that and to recognize it, but thank you for really being vulnerable and sharing that experience because it’s, I think is not that unique. As an entrepreneur, when you start your business and you’ve got a start up that’s just starting to get some traction and scale like yours was, it’s sometimes easy to lose the focus on what’s truly important. Now I think this is cool because you’ve kind of come full circle. And I think where your focus is now, particularly with the E1B2 Collective is helping startup founders know that, recognize it and not make those same mistakes that you did way back when. Is that kind of where your passion is now?

Anthony Vaughan (05:59):

Yeah, so that, that is my passion, right? Because if I’m being frank with you, Jon, I was in a really dark place, a really depressed state, and it really took a lot for me to kind of go into the perspectives and to unpack what I did wrong. Again, briefly, what I’m trying to do with the E1B2 Collective is a few different things. The main core thing that I’m trying to do is I’m trying to help brands, like you said, not make the mistake that I made. You know, if you’re a 40, 50, 60 people deep in a company like I was – cause my brand was about 35 people deep at the time-and so if you’re at that position and you are thinking about hiring a first-time HR leader to come into your business and, and really shape and mold the experiences of your employees, there’s a lot there, right?

Anthony Vaughan (06:45):

And there’s a lot of mistakes that you can make that can maybe not end your business like mine, but it can put you in a tough spot where you’ll have a lot of churn. You won’t have as much productivity as you need. You won’t have a lot of retention. You won’t have people that are satisfied and happy and really look at your brand in the best light, which inevitably can lead to a decrease in income, a decrease in productivity, you know, products that are not efficient, products that are not developed well. So there’s a lot of negative things that can happen. So, yeah, I’m here trying to build a brand to help brands that are in that startup phase; that beginning, let’s call it the first two to five years phase, where you’re still starting to try to grow the brand. I’m here to help. I’m here to pretty much make sure that you don’t make the mistake that I made because I learned a really, a really, really hefty lesson. Let’s keep it there cause I probably could go on a lot. I learned my lesson and I want to help other brands not make that mistake.

Jon Tota (07:38):

Hey, listeners, Jon Tota here. As businesses everywhere are struggling with the new normal of hiring and training new employees virtually, do you know if your company’s on-boarding program is setting up your employees for success? It’s more important than ever right now when new people are joining your company and learning your culture while operating almost entirely from remote locations. eLearning Brothers has the answer for you in their brand new virtual onboarding handbook. Download a checklist to see how well your onboarding program stacks up. Then read the free handbook that covers the four pillars of on-boarding and includes a sample template for a fully virtual on-boarding program. Visit learninglifeshow.com/ELB to download your free checklist and handbook today. Provided by eLearning Brothers – the industry leading provider of eLearning solutions. eLearning Brothers has everything you need to launch your own virtual on-boarding program to keep your business scaling and culture growing during these challenging times. Get your free handbook today at learninglifeshow.com/ELB. Now back to our show.

Jon Tota (08:39):

Because you’re so rooted in employee experience, as we’re coming out of this kind of in the post-COVID time now where businesses are cutting back, the local states and cities are starting to reopen businesses are getting back up and running. And I, and I read a lot about how our perception of employee experience or what it might have been in the past is now evolving to something different in this post-COVID work workplace. So tell us a little bit about one. How do you see this first, what do you see changing in employee experience from, you know, just a few months ago, we never saw this coming if you went a few months back in early March and February, and now this world has completely changed, what are you seeing on the horizon for us?

Anthony Vaughan (09:31):

I see the perspective of micromanagement and the way that you develop talent and manage that talent changing. I think, I think there were a lot of perspectives that leaders and brands had where they felt that you needed to either be inside the office, literally have your eyes on your team, have a really good gauge of what they’re working on, how it’s being developed. And I think a lot of brands are starting to now realize that we can give our people a little bit more autonomy and a little bit more flexibility from not only the times of day that they work, but it’s okay to make certain mistakes and it’s not going to be as detrimental as we thought. And it’s okay to let our people be a little bit more human. So that’s a couple of things that I’m starting to see and notice where a lot of brands were so tight, and their behaviors were so consistent with micromanaging. Now they’re starting to ease up a bit to a certain level and not be so tight on certain time windows and structures and the way that you go about the work and when it’s delivered and turned in, or when you work versus when you don’t work. I think people are starting to ease up a bit because they’re realizing that real life is an actual thing. They’re also realizing that more than ever, if you were one of those brands that had the ability to kind of hold on and still maintain business, your employees are more important than ever now because frankly, you know, due to what the government was doing to try to help employees out and more importantly, due to the employees, kind of realizing that there’s so much more things about life that are more important than just our work.

Anthony Vaughan (11:10):

The employees kind of had a little bit more of an advantage if you will, from, from the leverage perspective, which is look, you know, I’ve got to care about my, my sick father, potentially. I need to look out for my kids. I have to make sure that they’re okay. I have a lot of other things going on in my life, other than just work. And brands and employers are finally starting to realize that employees are humans, not just resources. Yeah, there’s a lot of things happening there that I’d be definitely willing to unpack for sure.

Jon Tota (11:40):

This was probably the way we were all headed anyway.

Anthony Vaughan (11:44):

Yeah.

Jon Tota (11:44):

Because technology has changed the way that we are always available. We don’t have to be, you know, in that specific location to do our job, but it still, might’ve been another three years, five years before the working world caught up with us, right. And, and like in three months, all of a sudden, it’s like, you look out and you’re like, wow, we’ve changed. Are you seeing with some of the companies that you’re helping right now- Are they changing that policy and saying, Hey, maybe don’t need to be in the office every day like, like we thought you needed to be. Is that one of the big changes for you?

Anthony Vaughan (12:20):

Yeah. They’re changing the policy of when they, when they, again, first they’re actually changing a lot of policies on the workflow itself. So that’s something I’ve been really big on even before COVID-19 hit, which is, I’m a big fan of brands saying, look, Jon, tell us how you like to work. Well objectively here’s what needs to get done for the brand, and we all can agree that this X needs to get done, but tell us how your brain works. Tell us in your schedule, in your life, the way that you’d like to go about the work, let us know how you want to get to X being completed. I’ve always been a fan of that. I’ve always pushed the employees that I had with my consultancy and my very first brand. I’ve always kind of been that guy that kinda liked to give people that autonomy. Now, more than ever, that autonomy is here.

Anthony Vaughan (13:09):

Maybe we were three to four years away from that being here. No, we’re here now. And it’s going to be interesting to see brands allow people to stay in that pocket, right. Because I don’t know, you know, where you are, what things are happening, but here in Maryland things are probably 60% open by the end of the summer. I think we’re going to be full fledged open probably. And so it’s going to be interesting to see brands keep this up or revert back to their old ways and our old behaviors. So, yeah, that’s just one way that I think COVID-19 has affected things. The actual workflow, it’s being put more on the employee and the autonomy is a little bit more flexible there than ever before.

Jon Tota (13:50):

I think that that’s such an important point, the autonomy, and just having that trust in your people. I think when you see people sitting at a desk in your office as a business owner, there’s a certain comfort level that, okay, I see the heads at their desks. I know everybody’s working, but you don’t really know how much work is getting done either. Either you trust your employees or you don’t. And if you do, why does it matter that you’re able to see them? Why wouldn’t they be able to work from anywhere and still get the job done today? What are your recommendations for businesses looking out to September and saying, okay, what do you do over these next couple months of the summer to prepare for that? Are you helping them rewrite their employment policies? What would be your recommendation for a business owner looking out two or three months and saying, Hey, be prepared for being fully open and having a new policy in place? What’s what’s step one for someone who’s got to deal with that?

Anthony Vaughan (14:45):

I would say get all of the decision makers together in a room and take ego, take opinions, take personal perspectives and desires and put them to the side. Cause you know, I hate when people coined the term emotions and personal perspectives are not involved in business, and business is a black and white thing. That’s BS and we all know it. At the end of the day, throughout the last let’s call it 30, 40 years, the people, the executives that have been sitting at the top, their opinions, their perspectives that are not objective have always played a part in the workflow or deliverable or the products that are rolled out or the things that are happening. They’ve always had an opinion on what should be happening and what shouldn’t be happening. And it’s never been super, super black and white and objective.

Anthony Vaughan (15:33):

So, you know what I trying to help some brands understand and what I’m asking anybody listening to this understand is get all the decision makers in a room and ask yourself, what do we want to get accomplished in the next 12 months? Lay them all out. What products do we want to know, what new products that we want to roll out? What current products do we want to try to increase the productivity on increased sales, on whatever the, whatever the goals are, right? Whatever the KPIs are going to be, ask yourself objectively, right? No emotions. Can these things get done with the current structure that we have now doing the COVID-19 crisis? The way that we’ve had our employees working currently, are things getting done. Did we have a time window on certain deliverables that were made up by us? Was it made up by the consumer’s desire? Who made these [deadlines] up?

Anthony Vaughan (16:18):

And let’s really test ourselves to ask ourselves these really tough objective questions, because in most cases, Jon- and we all know the couple of brands that don’t have that luxury- but in most cases, the answer is probably going to be, you know what? We can either keep things how they are. We can try to flex it out a little bit, right? We can have a flex situation where they come into the office two days a week, because maybe there’s something that needs to actually happen in person. But for the most part, we can keep it pretty flexible where they can work from home and give them some of that autonomy. Because again, if they’re being objective and real with themselves, I’m quite sure there hasn’t been that much of a drop off on productivity and deliveries and deliverables. And in certain cases I’ve read some articles and some case studies where things that actually spiked because now employees feel comfortable. Now employees feel like, wow, that little burst of energy that I get between eight and let’s call it 9:30 at night, I can utilize that burst of energy to get something done, to answer an email. And now my, now my creativity is even more. And I can answer something with a little bit more juice or answer something from a little bit of a different lens or work on a project that I probably would have been forced to work on in my office at 1:30 pm after I’m done lunch and I’m super tired. I can put that off untill 9:30 pm, I can put that off until the kids go to bed. You know, there’s, there’s a little bit of a flexibility and autonomy that I think brands need to just live into and dive into. But the most important part, you get tactical, get everybody in a room and let’s say, look, guys, we admit it. We’ve all had our opinions. We’ve all had our personal perspectives, um, involved in here.

Anthony Vaughan (17:57):

I remember Gary V actually quoted this recently and said that he actually likes being in the room with everyone. And he admitted that he had considered not letting, not having the policy adjust, where he was going to give people the autonomy and the flexibility to go into work whenever they wanted and kind of give them that space to deal with the situation at a one-by-one personal level. He admitted it was because of not the objective black and white deliverables that were happening. It was really because he just likes seeing everybody. And he likes being able to give people daps and hugs, and see them working and laughing with each other. And he realized that ‘I have to strip my ego out of this and focus on the black and white. Will the deliverables occur? Will the brand continue to grow, and can we be productive?’

Anthony Vaughan (18:41):

And if the answer is yes, then you need to live into people’s comfortability, people safety, people’s opinions because not to coin, what I’m doing here, Jon, but you know, employees come first when it comes to that. They are the foundation at a literal level. If they were to walk away tomorrow, if you were to have to try to figure out a way to hire a thousand people overnight, I’m quite sure you wouldn’t be able to do it. So those are my thoughts on that. I don’t know if that’s helpful or valuable to other people, but I think that will be a nice structure to try to implement.

Jon Tota (19:13):

Yeah. Yeah. I definitely get it too. Like Gary V, I realized that that while my team has been working from home, we’ve been getting everything done. They might be working harder than ever before; they certainly seem to be working at all hours. But I think what I was most excited to get people back in the office was just the personal connections, like just kind of working together, collaborating. And you know, we’re doing our meetings outside right now. We’re not meeting in the conference room, and we’re giving everybody the flexibility to come in or not. It’s up to you if you feel comfortable. And I think it’s this issue of safety. Every employee kind of sees their safety in a different way, or they’ve got a different tolerance level for their safety now with what we just went through. How much are you seeing that as an issue that all of us business owners need to look at that, Hey, you’ve got to now not just put the employee first, but their health and their comfort in the situation of being in an office together- that’s got to now be a priority. Where does that rank in the whole scheme of things for you now?

Anthony Vaughan (20:24):

I think it ranks pretty high as well. I think you have to go one by one by one. And if that means you’re a company of a thousand or 2,000 or 5,000 or a hundred thousand, it may take a long time and there’s tools to help you get those answers. But I think you need to go one by one and ask people what they personally want and what they personally desire. And I think you need to do everything in your power, as hard as it may be, to try to build an individual experience for everybody because more than ever, it’s really important. At a real legal level now, HR, HR law is not really my cup of tea, but I do have some people in my collective that that is their niche, and they’re telling me that things are changing at the policy level, from like state to state, city to city, and around the country, things are changing due to this COVID-19 situation where you can’t just fire someone or discipline someone if they elect to not come in anymore. Let’s go back before COVID-19 hit. Imagine if one of your employees said, yeah, I’m just going to work from home today, Jon, you would have you, I don’t know. I’m assuming let’s, let’s give you the benefit of the doubt. Your leadership style is probably amazing. So you may have given them a little bit of autonomy, but in most cases, people would have probably said, are you crazy? You’re not telling me, you know, you’re not telling me that you’re going to just come in whenever you want. You’re going to come in. Those things are changing now. You know, you can no longer discipline or let someone go because they want to flex their options. So it’s something that a lot of brands and to be thoughtful of.

Jon Tota (22:00):

Yeah. You’re a hundred percent right with that because in the past you might’ve allowed it, but you’d be like, well, I didn’t like the way that they requested that. Like, it wasn’t a question. It was, I’m going to work from home. And in this state, like three months later, if someone says I’m going to work from home, you wouldn’t even question it. You say, whatever makes you comfortable, whatever makes you feel safe. And maybe that is one of those silver linings of all this, that we needed to jump forward as a business society and give people that higher trust level and say, listen, you’ve earned that right. The work-life balance has been all lopsided because I can reach my employees on a Saturday, at nine o’clock on a Tuesday night, first thing in the morning, and you can hit them with Slack or email, or, you know, any one of, you know, your different tools and people feel, the employee feel like they have to respond. They have to give you an answer regardless of the time. And it’s no longer confined to nine to five. So is that kind of the compromise that’s like the give and take is that, Hey, we’ve had this luxury of being able to reach our employees at any time, day or night now, which we didn’t have before. So now the flip sides coming into play in the employee’s favor. Right?

Anthony Vaughan (23:18):

I think so. I think so. And then again, to get super practical and tangible, I gave some advising to a brand that we’re working with the other day. And I said, look, just go one by one. And this is a little bit easier for them. I think they have like 80 people. I said, just go one by one and have people there are tools out here that will help you, you know, have people fill out their availability calendar because now the calendar is going to be wide. Like now, Susan, that likes to wake up at 5:30 in the morning and doesn’t have to do the commute anymore. She can get her workout done from 5:30 am to 6:15 am, and maybe she’ll like this, maybe she wants to sit down and welcome a call or answer some emails between 6:15 am to seven o’clock before she hops in the shower.

Anthony Vaughan (23:57):

Then she went, then she’s blocked off again from 7:30 to 8:10 am to eat her breakfast. And then maybe she’s ready to go from eight until that, that 4:00 pm, 4:30 ish window. Then maybe she wants to spend time with her kids from 4:30 ish to 7:00 pm or 7:30. And then maybe from 7:30, till 10, she’s open again. You have to do it at a one by one basis. You have to have a tool, a calendar that allows people to fill out what works for them. And the biggest thing is you have to make sure that, as long as it’s a win-win on both sides, as long as objectively, what you set out to get accomplished is getting done and what they’re setting out, which is to be comfortable and to also get it done, as long as those things are matched up, then you really, as a brand need to live into just being a human being and doing the right thing and making it flexible.

Anthony Vaughan (24:50):

But on the behalf of the brand, guess what? Now you have so much autonomy. Like if I were being an employee right now, I could, I probably, I know me. I get a burst of energy between like nine and 11:30 pm for some reason. I stay up pretty late. I get a burst of energy. So I would keep that option available, you know, hit me up, Leader, give me a call. We can do some strategy calls at 10 o’clock. I have a burst of energy, but I know other people don’t have that. So I think you got to go one by one by one. And there’s ways that you can block that out on a calendar so that you know, that those windows and those times are available for them. And that’s when they would like to work and get things done.

Jon Tota (25:28):

It’s just such an interesting time to live and operate a business. Tell us a little bit about how your collective set up and the way that you guys are engaging with companies now.

Anthony Vaughan (25:40):

Yeah, so the E1B2 collective is split in two different directions, so it’s a holding company. Um, so, in an ideal state, my goal over the next 10 years is to create 10 or so internal brands under the E1B2 collective banner and then we’re going to have tons of products and services and offerings. Currently right now, the service that we have is like I told you about prior, if you are a startup or small business, 40, 50, 60 people deep, you’re just considering hiring your first HR person for 45, 55, 65,000. Don’t do that, send us that 65,000, give us that 55,000. We have 15 people in our collective that are ready to work with you over nine months and build out everything you need versus, and I’m sure you can attest to this, Jon, versus having that one person try to just immediately jump into your business, try to understand the culture and then try to do a multitude of different responsibilities and are in work up to their neck in the weeds. Don’t do that. We have a team of people here where we will allocate the 45, 65, 70 grand, whatever your budget is, we’ll allocate that how we need to with our collective and we’ll get it done.

Anthony Vaughan (26:53):

There’s another company we have inside the brand called Monday Anticipation, which, and the product under that is called Beyond Resume, which is for the employee. If you’re an employee and you want a brand to know a little bit more about you beyond your resume, so that you can make sure this is a good fit for not only you, but also the employer going into things like your ideal workflow, going into things like projects you need to work on that are going to be important for your long-term career track, going to going into things like types of leaders, leadership styles that you work well with, and the reasons of why, explaining stories of your past and experiences that are personal level so that the employer can learn a little bit more about you beforehand.

Anthony Vaughan (27:36):

That’s the product for you. And then for the Collective we have, we’re ever growing this. I realized that I didn’t want to try to compete with the HR consultancies around the world. I didn’t want to try to build the biggest podcast, be the biggest brand from like a Gary V style and just try to steal business that way. I said, let me form a collective. So right now we have about 15 people and it’s going to continue to grow. If they have any projects or initiatives they’re working on where they feel like the 30 to 40% of things that we do here at E1B2 we’re the best at doing, they’ll reach out to us. And then for us, like I said, working with the startups or with Beyond Resume or other things that we’re doing, if we need their services, which we will always, we have a collective where they’re experts. They already have the tools built. They already have the workflow built. They know how to do it. We can, we can immediately jump on their backs of their reputation and what they do well. Um, so that’s why we call it the Collective, because it is a group of us that look out for each other and work on collective projects together to get things done. So that is the structure.

Jon Tota (28:46):

That’s very cool. Yeah. And I do know that too, is that you could never afford it. And I know the quality of people that you’re working with in the Collective, and you could never afford to hire all those people, particularly as a startup, but to be able to leverage them and be able to fit them in at the exact moment that you need that expertise. I think it’s an awesome solution. For anybody who’s listening, who wants to learn more about the E1B2 Collective, certainly check out the E1B2 podcast. I’ve been listening to it. I think it’s awesome. But tell us, where else should they find you on the web to learn more about what you’re offering to people now?

Anthony Vaughan (29:24):

The website is on the way, you know, we’re, we’re three months into this project here. Uh, so the website is still being built, but in the meantime, you guys can check me out on LinkedIn at Anthony Vaughan, V a U G H a N. Incredibly responsive. We’ll always answer, or you can send me an email to, um, [email protected] And I’m also on Twitter at @E1B210; don’t ask me where the 10 came from. That was the only option they gave me on Twitter. I can engage with you there. So, um, and then, like you said, the podcast as well. I’m always trying to pump out some good content. Um, and then Monday Anticipation, we have a new podcast there as well, where we’re talking directly to employees, founders, and first time people leaders.

Jon Tota (30:07):

That’s great. And we’ll put links to all those resources in the show notes. So all of you listeners can follow up with Anthony and just find out what he’s been up to. Definitely really good follow on LinkedIn. I think, you’re very committed to putting good content out there. Definitely for all of you who are into new podcast shows and particularly in this space, check out the E1B2 podcast and Anthony, thank you for taking the time to be with us today. It was really fun talking.

Anthony Vaughan (30:33):

Thanks so much. This was a pleasure.

Jon Tota (30:35):

And to all of our listeners, thank you for being here every week. As you know, we have a new episode that comes out every Tuesday, so wherever you’re listening, be sure to subscribe, leave us comments. We’d love to hear from you guys. And until next week, happy learning!